If A Guy Hasn’t Finalized Saturday Plans by Thursday, Am I Wrong to Make Other Plans?

If A Guy Hasn't Finalized Saturday Plans by Thursday, Am I Wrong to Make Other Plans

Recently, I went on an amazing four dates with a guy who was objectively handsome, intelligent (three Ivy league degrees), and in a successful, well-paying job. We had excellent chemistry, he was initiating our once-weekly dates, in contact with me via phone/email 2-3 times a week, I was sitting back and mirroring, and I thought everything was going smoothly. After our fourth date on a Saturday night, he immediately asked for a fifth date though he did not specify when that date would occur. He called once more that week and we talked about how great the fourth date was, but he did not specify plans for a fifth date. Eventually Thursday evening rolled around and I still had not heard from him. I wanted to make plans for Saturday, so I went ahead and did so with some friends. When I let him know that I had made plans (I also noted that I enjoyed spending time with him and I was looking forward to going out again), he basically sent me a tersely worded email expressing his disappointment and I haven’t heard from him since.

So, should I have made myself more available to him? I considered keeping my Saturday evening open in the hope I would go out with him, but he hadn’t locked me down, so that’s why I went ahead and make plans. Does mirroring imply keeping myself available so a guy can ask me out up until the day before the date? To me that felt inconsiderate, but to him, he might have been upset because he intended to ask me out, but I had already made plans. I’m very torn on this and I’m not sure how to handle this scenario in the future.

Melinda

Yeah, this is my concept of “mirroring” run amok.

Sorry about that, Why He Disappeared readers; it’s a LITTLE more nuanced than “do nothing.”

Even if a guy is confident, masculine, alpha and interested in you, that doesn’t mean you act indifferent towards him. Which is exactly what you did when you made other plans on Saturday night although he’d already intimated that he wanted to see you again.

Even if a guy is confident, masculine, alpha and interested in you, that doesn’t mean you act indifferent towards him.

So allow me to reiterate once and for all: the purpose of mirroring – which is to say, reacting to his advances instead of making advances of your own – is to avoid chasing the cute guy. It is for anxious, insecure women who always find themselves propping up relationships with ambivalent men by texting, calling and making plans.

Your situation, Melinda, was different. You have a guy who’s seen you four times, who asked you out for a fifth date, who followed up by phone just to connect afterwards, and whose biggest crime was not confirming/nailing down a time for the date itself.

Looking back, don’t you think you would have gotten your fifth date if you’d texted him on Thursday, “Hey sexy, just wanted to confirm we were on for Saturday night. A girl needs a few days to plan what to wear! XO.”

I sure do.

Believe it or not, men don’t play games. They’re interested or they’re not.

This guy was interested in you. And because you didn’t approach him directly with a perfectly reasonable question shoring up your plans, you ended up alienating him.

And if you’re confused about the difference between confirming plans and initiating plans, here’s what it looks like when a woman reaches out to a man out of insecurity that she’ll never hear from him again:

“Hey, Bryan, I haven’t heard from you in awhile. When am I going to see you again? How about a picnic on Sunday? Hope to hear from you soon…”

Believe it or not, men don’t play games. They’re interested or they’re not.

Weak, needy, insecure, desperate – all the things that the first “Hey sexy” text is not.

Long story short: Men don’t play games. You shouldn’t either.

Sorry you had to learn the hard way.

By the way, there’s a great video about this in Love U, called “The 2 Exceptions to Mirroring.”

Click here to get access to the first two weeks for free (only available for a limited time only!)

101 Comments

  1. Evan, i’m really confused by this response. If this man was interested wouldn’t he try to lock down plans with her for the weekend. By sending that text, wouldn’t it mean that she’s reminding him that she’s alive and interested? A guy will move mountains to be with a woman he is very interested in.

  2. Evan Marc Katz

    They already HAD plans. She’s not chasing. She’s not asking him out. She’s confirming something pre-existing. It’s different – at least to me, and the clueless men who receive confirmation texts and appreciate it.

  3. They had plans for another date but the details were not specified.  It seems presumptuous of him to assume that every one of her Saturday nights are reserved for him unless he locks it in.  Most Saturdays, yes.  All Saturdays, presumptuous.  If they’re settling in to a relationship, things are going to start to change and she’s entitled to make plans with her friends for Saturday night.  If they are a couple, which has not yet been established, then yes, she should plan her weekends considering him and his expectations.  Maybe she should have considered that they are becoming a couple.  Again, topic for an adult discussion

  4. Hm. You have said in the past that sometimes “men are just in the moment”. In this situation, I might have concluded that he was just being in the moment when he suggested the date, but later changed his mind. Especially if he broke his pattern and called less that week. The fact that he thought their dates were great does tend to support the idea that he really meant it, but I can see room for confusion.

  5. CaliforniaGirl

    They did not have plans, he didn’t set up a date or maybe Evan omitted something from the email because I don’t see where it says they had a date.  It’s also unclear if she contacted him and told him that she made plans for Saturday or how it happened. Anyway, if it didn’t work out, so it didn’t work out. Nothing to think about.
    I never leave my days open for anyone, if something comes up, I go with it and offer a guy a different day. If I don’t have a set up date with time and place, I don’t have a date, isn’t it what Evan teaches us here? ???? I had a guy asking for a second date on Friday but without time or place, then on Friday he texts me a place that it will take me 1.5 hours to get there in LA’s Friday night traffic. I laughed and told him that I’ll pass. I didn’t have any other plans, so I stayed home and never accept tentative dates anymore.

  6. Evan Marc Katz

    Evan teaches us (in the third person) to be confident, direct and not to play games. He already indicated to her that he wanted to see her on Saturday night. She hadn’t heard from him. The easiest/most effective solution is to text (or even CALL) him and ask him what the plan was. Simple. All y’all who are defending her are defending game playing.

  7. SparklingEmerald

    Actually Evan, he asked for another date, but according to the LW he didn’t say when.  However, if an every Saturday night pattern had been set, it wouldn’t have been unreasonable to assume that.

  8. I didn’t see where he specifically asked for Saturday night,  he just said he wanted to go out again. I think if I were her, I would have asked him which day he preferredso she could make plans the opposite night with her friends.

  9. Reading between the lines, it seems implicit that Saturday nights was your guys’ night and therefore, yes, you should have contacted him before locking in plans with someone else.  But on the other hand, it was somewhat pretentious of him to assume that you will keep Saturday night open without an explicit discussion or clear understanding.  When was he going to finalize the plans?
    Just like flying, takeoffs and landings are the hardest and most critical parts of dating.  IMO, he should not have flamed out over what you did.  He should have been humble and realized that there was a misunderstanding.  Nobody should throw out a good relationship over that.  If it was me, I would have asked you for Friday night and had a discussion about what happened.   There’s plenty of blame on both sides which should cancel out and give you guys an opportunity to have a discussion and that would be good to see how you can work things out together.   Lots of nuances in these situations.

  10. I agree. I don’t see any good reason for his terse email response.  His response to me is a huge red flag.  He could have said that he was bummed and thought they already had plans for Saturday, and then they could have worked out a different time, and both could have apologized for their parts in the misunderstanding.  Either way, I don’t think it should have been a big deal. Misunderstandings happen all the time.

  11. This.
    Dude isn’t ready for a real relationship. She dodged a bullet.

  12. This. Dude isn’t ready for a real relationship. She dodged a bullet.
    I think you’re mistaken about this. First, there is no indication that she would have initiated a fifth date even if the guy hadn’t already suggested that they go out again. It is clear from the letter that the OP had adopted a rather selfish version of the concept of mirroring, which entailed doing nothing and never initiating any contact on her own. After four dates it can get irritating if you’re the only one making contact in between the dates.
    For the commentators who are saying that this was a sign that he just wasn’t into her (Tom10, JB) in my opinion you are mistaken. If a man goes on four dates and he just isn’t feeling it, he will gracefully accept any out he is given. He won’t send a terse email or get upset (why would he? After all, he would want to terminate the courting, and any help he is given would feel like god send). If he really just wasn’t feeling it, then when she told him she had made plans he likely would have exhaled a sigh of relief and said something like, “cool, let’s reschedule later,” and then ghosted her.

  13. Somewhat agree with you Scott. Not sure she should have contacted him though. How does this fit into the “it isn’t real until he’s your boyfriend” scenario?
    She’s unsure if he’s going to follow through and make definite plans. By Thursday, he hasn’t. She doesn’t want to stay home Saturday night so she makes plans with friends. I don’t see the unforgivable sin here.
    “Eventually Thursday evening rolled around and I still had not heard from him. I wanted to make plans for Saturday, so I went ahead and did so with some friends. When I let him know that I had made plans (I also noted that I enjoyed spending time with him and I was looking forward to going out again), he basically sent me a tersely worded email expressing his disappointment and I haven’t heard from him since”.
    Seems kind of like a jerk move to me. Seems like a reasonable person would have seen their error, or at the very least, chalked it up to miscommunication and made plans for another night.

  14. Nice!
     

  15. I thought she had specifically stated, “ he immediately asked for a fifth date though he did not specify when that date would occur. He called once more that week and we talked about how great the fourth date was, but he did not specify plans for a fifth date.” I missed where it says  they were planning on going out on a Saturday night.  In that case, it would make sense for her to make sure if they were still on. I have been in a related situation with a guy who wouldn’t really make concrete plans with me. For instance, he would contact me on Tuesday asking to go bowling, and then would’t say for what day until i would have to remind him on Thursday night via text, “what day am i gonna kick your butt in bowling ???? ?” And he would then make plans for Friday night. Only to not hear from him for 3 days after, although there would be a ridiculous amount of PDA, laughing, etc. on our dates. This was a 6th date.  Looking back on our exchanges, I feel like I was always hinting at our dates. And throughout the course of 3 months, this took a lot of energy from me. He would contact me every day or every other day, only after I expressed to him that if someone is really interested they wouldn’t take 3 or more days to reach out to you (after dating for 2 months). I think I may have been dating the casual  dater and I finally ended it with him this weekend. The red flags were there.. seeing each other every other week (he blamed this on having 2 jobs, he had joint custody with his daughter so she was with him half the week, and he had class 2 nights per week), so i accepted it. I didn’t meet the friends or daughter. He also did not try to make it exclusive between that 6-8 week period and I ended it after 3 months, when i saw the final week that he was “online now” a lot on the dating site we met and he was casually dropping in to text me. I felt he was not that into me and I ended things.  I don’t want to initiate contact with a man, and really apply the concept of “mirroring”so I know who is genuinely interested–Like Evan’s wife who never initiated in all the time they were dating but responded warmly to his advances. It’s just hard not to reach out at all after a month or two month of dating when you are very attracted and interested about someone. But I think to some guys think that makes women look eager (or that they have us) and turns them off. In situations where i was confused I think i was initiating contact about 20 percent of the time. If I sit back and wait for them, and respond like I am glad to hear from them then I’ll have a better chance to weed out who is going out with me only to fill time. Btw I really enjoy your blog Evan, helps me get through confusing situations with different guys.

  16. @California Girl
    Personally, I am turned off if a guy accepts my money on a first few dates or, I had it so many times, tells a waiter that we are not going to order food without even asking me first. It makes me feel uncomfortable and resentful that I just spent an hour getting ready, thinking what to wear, trying to look my best, driving there, paying for parking and a guy is so cheap that he doesn’t want to pay $10 for some appetizer.
    I’ll be happy when this silly chivalry charade is finally over for good. In 5 years this whole mindset of provide for your woman will be old-fashiony, and not in a good old fashion way.
    Ask me on a date, assume we’re going dutch. We can talk, laugh, connect – and split the check. Easy solution.
    Think of it this way, currently if a guy wants to talk to you in a bar, all he has to do is buy you a 6 dollar drink. It’s like he’s purchased your time. Guys don’t think of the whole silly chivalrous stuff in terms of obligation, but girls do. At least I do.
    Alternatively – Just come talk to me! Invite me to get a drink with you and then buy one for yourself and assume I’ll do the same. Buying things for people in this situation just makes the girl feel obligated to spend time with the guy, even if she really wants to. Maybe I’m just speaking for myself, but the sexiest guy would be the one who invites me for a drink with him, buys one for himself assuming that i’m capable of buying my own, and genuinely spends time talking with me and we enjoy each others company.
    That screams confidence to me, but in a gently, kind way.
    I know guys mean well, but I can’t wait for this outdated dating choreography to phase out.

  17. It may scream confidence to you, but it would scream rudeness to me.

  18. Skaramouche

    I’m a bit conflicted on this one.  Initially, I was going to post the following about chasing a guy versus this situation:
    I guess the difference is that he’s already taken her on (and planned 4 dates) and verbally confirmed a fifth so he has built enough credit for some benefit of doubt or right of first refusal, so to speak.
    However, I just re-read the letter for details and OP doesn’t say whether the first three dates also happened on Saturday.  If so, there might be some assumption on his part that after 4 Saturdays in a row, she will understand he also wants to see her on the next one especially given that he indicated there would be a fifth date.
    If the previous dates were not all on Saturdays and no mention was made, even in passing, about a date on Saturday then I have no idea what all the fuss is about on his end.  In fact, the more I read this letter the more I realize that it’s skinny on details.  OP says “I told him I had made plans on Saturday.”  Well, why and how did she tell him?  In response to him trying to make plans with her?  To pre-emptively tell him that she’s no longer available so he has to pick a different day (this reeks of nyah nyah…should have acted faster…I’m busy now)?

  19. Emily, the original

    Skaramouche,
    OP says “I told him I had made plans on Saturday.”  Well, why and how did she tell him?  … To pre-emptively tell him that she’s no longer available so he has to pick a different day (this reeks of nyah nyah…should have acted faster…I’m busy now)?
    I thought that, too. Why did she email him that?
    She does say “after our fourth date on a Saturday night.” So it seems he was assuming they would once again go out on Saturday night. What she doesn’t say is whether or not it was common for him to wait that late in the week to solidify  the details of tentative plans.
     

  20. As a man I’m going to call it the way I see it. For him to email you after that, expressing disappointment/anger and then never contact you again. I hate to say what’s been said millions of times and I know it sounds contrived but he probably just wasn’t that into you or not as much as you thought. Now WE don’t know what actually happened on those dates only they do. If it was me and that happened and I was really into a woman I would just say “no problem let’s do it Wednesday or next Saturday,” I would also explain why couldn’t nail it down exactly as well. Just my 2 cents.

  21. Yes..very possible.  I was thinking the same.  He jumped..fast at over’.

  22. He was just looking for an out and she gave it to him. I’ve done it once or twice with women I wasn’t into.

  23. SparklingEmerald

    Thank you JB for your honest male perspective.  There are a few possible reasons for his wishy-washy Saturday night “plans” (or lack thereof), but my gut feeling is that he just wasn’t that into her.  Since they were still on a once a week basis, that was my first clue.
    Also, the OP didn’t say weather or not they had slept together.  I’m guessing that if they hadn’t had sex and  he had a “3 date rule”,   he may decided to give her an additional date or two grace period.  If sex hadn’t happened by date four, he may have assumed that it never would, and didn’t want to waste any more time, and was starting the “slow fade”.
    I am not of the mindset that if sex doesn’t happen in the first handful of dates that it never will, but many men have expressed on this blog, and elsewhere, that if a woman doesn’t put out in “x” number of dates, (“x” is usually 3 or less) then she NEVER will and they need to move on.

  24.  
    Agreed JB; he was looking for an out and this just happened to be it, but it could have been any small matter. Not only has he got his “out”, but he’s then turned it back on her so that it’s her fault! Nice.
     
     
     
    Or even if this analysis is incorrect, over-reacting to something so small this early in the dating process doesn’t say much for his personality or demeanor really.
     
     
     
    So he’s either JNTIY or not very nice. Or both. Next.
     

  25. SparklingEmerald,
     
    I don’t think it’s likely that he had a “three date rule”.  It sounds like the LW is very attracted to him based on what she perceives the chemistry level to be.  Therefore, if he had made his move, she likely would have responded positively soon after giving a token effort to not come across as a slut.  It doesn’t appear that he is interested, however.  Who knows why this is?  Since it’s date #5, she should be making the plans and paying by now.  Perhaps that’s what he’s waiting for since she’s been mirroring this whole time (hence, the mirroring run amok)?  He my be feeling objectified.  Consider how she described him in her letter:  she discussed looks, three Ivey League degrees, etc., but nothing about who he is as a person.

  26. SparklingEmerald

    Hi Chance at 5.1.1…
    SparklingEmerald,
    I don’t think it’s likely that he had a “three date rule”.  It sounds like the LW is very attracted to him based on what she perceives the chemistry level to be.  Therefore, if he had made his move, she likely would have responded positively soon after giving a token effort to not come across as a slut.
    I am assuming they didn’t sleep together because she didn’t mention it.  Most women mention that, but I could be wrong. In fact, she gave no indication of their physicality.  I assume they at least kissed, but now I am wondering . . .
    It doesn’t appear that he is interested, however.  Who knows why this is?  Since it’s date #5, she should be making the plans and paying by now.  Perhaps that’s what he’s waiting for since she’s been mirroring this whole time (hence, the mirroring run amok)?  
    I usually start offering to pay by the second or third date, and my early dates are usually no-cost or lost. When I was in OLD,  I listed many no-cost/low cost activities that I enjoy.  However, my generation of men, usually don’t go for  woman paying in the courtship phase.  In my younger days, men reacted very negatively when I offered to split the bill.  I had to really push to get my fiancee to accept “financial aide” on dates.  He just shrugged it off as “cute”.  He said “My baby, she’s so cute, always trying to pay.  Right now I am wooing you, so let me.  It is nice to know that down the road, we can go on nice road trips and split the cost”  I had to pay by stealth, cooking (even then, he would bring something), using movie passes, comp tickets for theater, Visa gift cards from work, etc.  He didn’t seem to mind if I paid using someone windfall work prize.  Now that we have been together almost 2 years, he’s less reluctant to accept my money, my real money, it doesn’t have to be a windfall from work or elsewhere.
    He my be feeling objectified.  Consider how she described him in her letter:  she discussed looks, three Ivey League degrees, etc., but nothing about who he is as a person.
    Yeah, I found that to be a bit off-putting as well.  It seems like she likes the IDEA of him, and not actually him.  More like he was a “trophy” boyfriend, than a flesh and blood boyfriend.
    Gen’l reply to thread . . . .
    I’m thinking maybe, just maybe, she could have called him and said, I want to do “x” with friends on Saturday, would you like to join us, or did you have something else in mind for this Saturday ?  But that can be real tricky, introducing a new suitor, but not yet boyfriend to friends.
     

  27. Hi SparklingEmarld,
    Since this is the site that I learned about women refusing to let a man pay if she is not into him; as well as the site that I hear the most stories regarding men who refuse to allow a women to pay
    In your opinion, do you think the men who are adamant about not allowing a woman to pay, do it because they are “old school” as you say or do you think it is because they secretly know that it is a sign that the woman is not really into them?
    So even if the woman is into the guy, could it be some insecurity behind their refusal to allow her to pay?

  28. SparklingEmerald

    Hi Adrian at 5.1.1
    Since this is the site that I learned about women refusing to let a man pay if she is not into him; as well as the site that I hear the most stories regarding men who refuse to allow a women to pay
    In your opinion, do you think the men who are adamant about not allowing a woman to pay, do it because they are “old school” as you say or do you think it is because they secretly know that it is a sign that the woman is not really into them?
    So even if the woman is into the guy, could it be some insecurity behind their refusal to allow her to pay?
    Very good question, and when I was dumped back out in the dating world in my 50’s, one I really struggled with.  In fact, I brought up my mixed feelings about paying on dates, based on my younger experiences  vs today’s modern dating expectations– ie:  if I pay will the guy think I’m not into him, or if I don’t offer to pay will the guy think I’m some spoiled, entitled gold digging, princess.  In my younger days, men almost always got insulted if I tried to pay, in these modern times, many men resent buying a woman a coffee or a sno-cone.
    In the case of my fiancee (he is 68)  I think it is a combination of him being old school AND his naturally generous character.   When he takes a family member out for an occasion, he treats the ENTIRE party to dinner, not just the birthday boy.  He gives to charity (time and money)  He is generous to his kids, grandkids and great grandkid.
    I handled it by suggesting and leaning toward no cost/low cost dates.   One guy reached out to me because he said he liked one of my ideas in the “first date section” of my profile which was “Take our cameras and go for a walk in a historic neiborhood or scenic nature walk and take photographs”.  I also listed the free art walks that are frequent in our town, and the free concerts.
    Also, if the guy suggested coffee (I know EMK recommends against “crappy coffee dates” but I actually like them)  I would get there a bit early and go ahead an get my own coffee. In those cases, the guy would mention something like,  “I see you already got your coffee” and I would just say, “Yes, traffic was light, so I got here a bit early . . .”  then they would offer a pastry, which I would accept.
    In my fiancees case, when he saw my coffee, he offered me a blueberry muffin, and we walked arm in arm back inside and got our muffins.   And we’ve been arm in arm ever since.
    I however do think that there is a big generational difference, so I really don’t know what to say to anyone under 40, let alone under 30 about how to navigate the “who pays” early portion of dating.
    My method of handling “who pays” was  maneuvering for a low cost/no cost (no cost works best) first date, then offer to leave a tip, or get an after dinner coffee or ice cream on a second or third date, actually ended up working pretty well for me.  Many men would say on those “extended dates” (if we arranged for a brief coffee, walk in the park, etc) if they wanted to extend it to more would add “my treat” at the end or somehow make it clear that they would be paying “May I get  you a pastry ?”.  “Let’s grab something to eat, my treat”.
    I always made sure there was a no-cost option on the early dates, and if the guy OFFERED more, happily accepted and said “Thank you” with a big smile.

  29. CaliforniaGirl

    @Adrian,
    I think it was much easier 50 years ago when men always paid and no one had to wonder what to do.  Now days I don’t think there is a rule to follow, each woman is different. Personally, I am turned off if a guy accepts my money on a first few dates or, I had it so many times, tells a waiter that we are not going to order food without even asking me first. It makes me feel uncomfortable and resentful that I just spent an hour getting ready, thinking what to wear, trying to look my best, driving there, paying for parking and a guy is so cheap that he doesn’t want to pay $10 for some appetizer. I even had a guy asking me to drive him to his car that he parked 6 blocks away because he didn’t want to pay $6 for valet. Sorry, those guys are not getting any action, believe me.
    Generous men will always get more women.

  30. CaliforniaGirl, it’s not an issue of generosity, it’s an issue of fairness.  Step up and pay if you don’t want self-respecting men to ghost on you.

  31. @California girl,
    “Generous men will always get more women”.
    100% true fact.

  32. CaliforniaGirl

    Self-respecting men do not ghost, they let you know if it doesn’t work and wish you good luck.  And I didn’t say that I don’t pay, I don’t pay on a first few dates to observe how my date handles himself. I always offer to pay on a first date but never go on a second with him if he accepts my money. Everyone has their own strategies and ways. I just cannot be attracted to a guy who takes from me $5 for my happy hour drink.

  33. SparklingEmerald

    Hi Ca Girl at  . . .
    I always offer to pay on a first date but never go on a second with him if he accepts my money.
    Aww, that’s a bit unfair don’t you think ?  I would never offer to pay, and then hold it against someone for taking me up on the offer.  That sounds like a “shit test” to me.  Maybe the guy had every intention of paying, then interpreted your offer as not being into him (and by you not giving him a 2nd date, you are cementing that notion).  Maybe he intended to pay, and thought your offer was genuine.
    I settled on giving guys the option to take me on a FREE brief date.  If they weren’t into me, they could just not offer to extend the date to something paying.  Usually the guys that were into me would voluntarily treat me to something.  One date I had at a free outdoor concert.  He excused himself briefly then surprised with a gelato for both of us.  On our first “meet and greet” my fiancee offered me a blueberry muffin when I got to the coffee shop before him, and bought my own coffee.  (He then extended our “coffee date” to include a movie, and I suggested the dollar theater)  So those few dollars spent on me for those early dates are not due to social expectation or pressure, but was completely voluntary, and very low cost.
    I adopted a “never expected, always appreciated” attitude towards those first meet and greets.  After all, with online dating, you are basically meeting a stranger.    This method that I finally settled on (after grappling with this)  worked very well for me.  When I gave men the “no cost” option, they gladly offered me some sort of token treat.  I honestly don’t think any of those guys resented paying a token few dollars.  If they did, then really that is their problem, because I gave them a no cost option.

  34. CaliforniaGirl

    @SparklingEmerald,
    I don’t think there is universal formula for dating and everyone should do what works for them the best. I had brief cheap dates that never ever escalated to anything more and only left me resentful about wasted time and effort. What can you talk about over coffee? I don’t want it to be like an interview and I don’t feel like flirting in a loud coffee shop. A guy I am dating right now, I was his first Match date since he signed up after his last relationship ended. He never dated online before and he was just an old school with nice places he picked up for our dates, phone calls instead of texts and following up and setting a next date right after the previous one. I think I just got lucky ????

  35. If it was me and I really liked him I would have sent a quick message to him to reconfirm Thurs. Im a big fan of mirroring , thanks to Evan, and I don’t think this question to him is a big deal However I think he overreacted which is the red flag. If a guy was into her , he would likely say “I understand, my bad, lets meet asap” . I agree he wanted an out.
    I do understand a woman getting impatient with unconfirmed plans though. I ve had guys ask to meet , suggest a time and place, and then I never hear from them again. They might send me a vague text on the day that was targeted like “how r u? ” and  they now seem to have amnesia.  At that point I block them.

  36. This made me laugh out loud! I have experienced the amnesia too! It’s just so hard for me to understand this behavior, because I have only ever experienced it in the dating world.
    Honestly, why would someone suggest plans then text “how r u?” It is completely nonlinear, illogical and indirect. At that point I start wondering if I just have a by-phone contact buzz and forget about it.

  37. Nissa   – hard to understand but they are complete flakes without accountability. Do this in the business world and you’d have no clients.  …. thats what separates the men from the boy flakes… integrity

  38. I agree with you, JB.
    Here are two different situations with the same man.
    1. After a date, he was really enthusiastic about setting up another date, “this weekend.” He did not specify, but it seemed like he really wanted to meet with me and stayed in contact. So, when my friends asked me to plan a girls night, I told them he expressed interest in meeting one day over the weekend, so I reached out to him and said, “Hey, so I know you expressed interest in meeting up this weekend. My friends were thinking of girl’s night this weekend, so I wanted to give you a heads up.” He immediately responded that he was planning on Saturday and apologized for not contacting me sooner. He confirmed a date and time and said, “Have fun at girl’s night! Can’t wait to see you Saturday!”
    2. This situation is like the OP… We had a date one evening, and he mentioned after the date on a Friday, “Maybe I can take you to a movie on Sunday?” I told him that I didn’t have plans at the moment and to let me know… Well, Saturday nothing and Sunday nothing… I wasn’t really waiting around for him, so on Sunday afternoon when my friend asked me to go to the gym, I did. Sunday evening at 6:30 pm, I get a text from my guy that says, “Movie at 7:50?” I told him, “I’m so sorry, I am at the gym with my friend!” He said, not to worry and mentioned going another evening. He made sure to make the plans a little more in advance.
    We are still dating. He is like me, more spur of the moment, and we’ve been dating heavily for 2 months now. I do mirror him, but I also learned that if he says he wants to see me, I will reach out to him to see if he will follow through before disregarding his lack of confirmation as him no longer being interested. I just believe that guys can get so focused on one thing, like work, etc, that they can be forgetful.
    I know every situation is different, but I don’t think it is chasing if you reach out just to see if they really do have the intention of seeing you.
    I’ve reached out to men before (who never had the intention) and they make a lame excuse or don’t respond. Then I know they never really had the interest or intention of really seeing me, so I move on. ????
     

  39. As I read it, he simply asked to see her again but didn’t say anything about the following Saturday. Perhaps they’d gone out on the previous number of Saturdays so he presumed that it was a go. As a Very Structured Person I’d have to side with her however. At this stage things should be moving on at a nice clip such that there is zero vagueness or anxiety, and otherwise there should be lots of communication between dates.
     
     
     
     

  40. I think we need more information from the OP in regard to her saying, “when I let him know I made plans” – how did that happen? If she texted him, ‘hey, I have plans’ that might have given him the idea that she knew they had plans but she was blowing him off for a better offer. Based on his behavior, I’d guess that’s what he thinks happened.
    Otherwise, if one assumes that the behaviors of others are both well-intentioned but also deliberate, there’s no ‘crime’ here on the man’s behalf. However, I might have assumed that he intended to ask her out but hadn’t worked out a good time yet. In that case, I could see a text making him feel forced to respond before he’s worked it out in his mind. I have observed that things don’t go well when people feel they are being pressured. The lack of a phone call on Thursday would indicate that might be so, since the OP intimated that his pattern would have included a call by that day.
    On the other hand, I like the idea of treating potential boyfriends as one would treat a trusted friend. In that case, I might text something like, “Do we have plans Saturday? Because if we don’t, I’m going to go to this other fun thing”. (Assuming, as others have said, all the other dates were on a Saturday at the same time). But date five is very early for this, since (to me at least) it implies expectations of his behavior before she really knows him and fails to trust him to contact her when he is available.
    Either way, the OP’s guy comes off as insecure that he stopped communication based on that. Even if he wasn’t happy about it, if he was objective,  he would see that he failed to specify a time & date, which should reasonably account for the miscommunication. Even if he thought she was cancelling their plans, all it would have taken to clear that up is a text from him saying, “Did you forget we have plans then?” But perhaps most guys are not confident enough to do that.
    For myself, I don’t think I would have sent a text. I would have trusted the guy to let me know when & where to show up. If he doesn’t, and I’m not available, then he can offer another time and date with better communication.

  41. While communication is and remains, as always, the key, there are two simultaneously acting principles here:
    – Were the previous dates on consecutive Saturday nights? If they were, we might consider a pattern has been established, and checcking up on intent or scheduling might have been a good idea. No argument.
    – But outside of a committed relationship, before things gel, the girl is entitled to a life of her own. In fact, that remains true even AFTER commitment and solidifying. So a little leeway is to be expected, and a little tolerance / acceptance as well.
     

  42. This is a tricky one. One critical piece of information is missing. Did he reach out to her to arrange a date on Sat night, and she told him she had already made plans, or did she reach out to him saying she had already made plans without him asking first? The way I read it, it sounds like the latter. That wasn’t necessary. She should’ve waited for him to reach out first, and than say “jeez I really wish I could but since I haven’t heard from you until know I assumed we weren’t on for Saturday and made plans with my friends. Perhaps a brunch on Sunday?” That would be a non-confrontational reminder to him that she’s not sitting around waiting for him to call. If she did that AND his response was angry – major red flag, she needs to lose that guy pronto. He’s being unreasonable and a primadonna and not considerate about other people’s time and schedule. He expects the world to revolve around him and for people to make themselves available on a minute’s notice. This is selfish, and he’d be this way in a relationship. Who needs this crap?
    On the other hand, if she volunteered the info for no reason, I’d say she made a mistake. It is confrontational, kind of in your face “see, you didn’t make plans with me so now I am going out with my girlfriends!” kind of childish.

  43. This right here. Reaching out to him with information he didn’t ask for sounds like she was rubbing it in his face.

  44. It seems everyone is agreeing with or seeing her side (which I don’t disagree with)
    BUT
    I agree with Evan, all the fault is not on him. She could have contacted him to confirm. My guess is that their dates are usually on Saturdays and that is why he did not specify a date, because he assumed the fifth would be on the same day as the previous four.
    This is also only a guess, but I think that most of us are so use to only looking at situations from the letter writers side that we sometimes forget that their are two sides to every situation.
    Personally, I can see why he reacted so angrily; he assumed they had plans for Saturday, she confirmed they were going out on another date while on date number four (he assumed the day to be Saturday, she did not), then last minute (to him) she cancels their pre-arranged date, just to hang out with her friends.
    It reeks of insecurity and neediness, but I still can see how he felt dumped or like she was not that into him. I have read tons of similar stories like this from guys in the comments sections on here, and that is what is leading me to this conclusion. This is how I realized that even though Evan teaches that as long as a woman says yes, she is showing signs that she is into you, to many guys, even if she says yes, if she is “only” mirroring and doing little else to show she is into the guy, he will assume she is not really attracted to him.
    Actually the more I think about it, for him to react that way, I am guessing that she was possibly not giving him clear signs that she was really into him like “she thought” she was. Maybe he felt like a back up option the entire four dates and her actions of dumping him last minute on Saturday (in his mind) was the final indication that she was not into him.
    Do a search on this site about mirroring, this is not the first time a women gave a man the aloof or the I don’t really care about you or this date impression because of a misunderstand of applying mirroring.
    …  …   …
    I know that from many previous post and podcast, one of the biggest flaws that many women have, is that they think that they are showing clear signs of interest, but men are not subtle and we “generally” can’t read subtle actions, gestures, or body language (Lots of research has been done on this). Guys need huge, in their face signs sometimes, while women are great at reading subtlety.
    This means that men give large in your face signs that they are into a women-generally, while women give subtle signs that they are into a man; this causes many communication misunderstandings.
    Of course this is all just conjecture, the guy could just be a jerk; but maybe this guy needed for the original letter writer to offer more than a wink and a smile to know how she truly felt about him. I actually got into a debate with a “few” guys this weekend because most of them though that just because a girl kisses you it doesn’t mean that she is really into you, while to me that is a huge sign that a girl likes you. The girl in question was really shy, so the guy struggled with seeing she was attracted to him, the advice of literally every other guy in the group (and a few women) told the guy that she was just not really into him and that she was only saying yes to his dates because she was bored and waiting on a better option to appear.
    …    …   …
    Of course I still say that the letter writer AND the guy should have handled the situation like adults and called each other instead of texting.
    He was wrong to get angry, he was wrong (though I feel it was a mistake not intentional) for not confirming the day, and he was wrong for ending the relationship over that.
    But every man is not like Evan. Every man can not go months without having the woman do any kind of initiating (plus from what we read about Evan’s wife, she made Evan feel special on dates, she did not sit back mirroring, only giving what she received).
    To me it just seems like from her letter that the guy was really into her, so there had to be more of a disconnect than she realized. The only thing I can logically guess is that on the dates she felt she was giving him signs that she was interested but she came off to him as someone who was not that interest, or on the fence about her attraction to him (for example calling him objectively handsome).
    So already feeling like a backup, non-priority to her, when she last minute broke off their date just to hang with friends, his lack of assurance of her attraction for him took over and he acted like child.

  45. Just to clarify (for your benefit): a girl can kiss a guy and then decide she’s not into him (may be he’s a bad kisser or the lack of chemistry which was unclear before was cemented, or she was on the fence and now she’s certain that is a no go etc.)  I’ve done it many times in my life. So, no, that is not a sign. If she kissed him and then kissed him again ???? that is a sign.

  46. Hi Stacy2,
    And thank you (^_^). I apreciate any and all positive advice.
    He said they kissed a few times and they made out a few times. His issue was her not initiating ANYTHING! The calling, the texting, the dates, the kissing, the wanting to see each other etc.
    …   …   …
    I learned about how women view kissing from the movie Hitch (^_^).

  47. Emily, the original

    Adrian,
    Two things:
    then last minute (to him) she cancels their pre-arranged date, just to hang out with her friends.
    It’s never “just to hand out with” friends. One should always remain in contact with friends. Those relationships are important, too, regardless of whether or not you are dating someone. As you can see from the OP’s letter, guys come and go. It’s not good to have your entire social life center on one person.
    To back up Stacy2’s comment:  a girl can kiss a guy and then decide she’s not into him
    A girl can go to bed with a man and decide she’s not into him. You really never know what it going on in someone else’s head.
     

  48. Or she made plans when he waited until “the last minute” to schedule the date.  They could have had brunch or made plans for Sunday.  He pouted.  He’s annoyed she has a life and isn’t sitting around waiting for his call.  A confident man would appreciate her and find a time for them to meet.

  49. Just Saying

    Evelyn, you are making big big assumptions about his state of mind here. We don’t know how OP framed her text to him, nor what the dynamics of their brief dating relationship was. Most normal men would not have reacted like OP’s man did, especially if they showed such keen interest previously. Something is definitely missing here.

  50. Hi Emily,
    How did your get-together go the other night? Did you meet someone or at least have so much fun that you lost your glass slipper (^_^).
    …   …   …
    I agree with you, I was not implying that she should dump her friends for him, I was just answering from the view point of a insecure needy person, because that is how I see this guy. So to him, he was blown off because she wanted to hang with friends instead of be with him. But it is more than that, he saw it as a last minute dump.
    Look at it like this, I’m thinking in this guy’s mind they had a Saturday date, which he asked her about and she confirmed… last Saturday??? Or whenever their last date was, so about a week; then out of the blue, she waits until the day before to tell him, she wants to go out with her friends instead.
    It is the insecure guy’s apocalyptic nightmare come true. Falling for a women who is not really into him, or is just with him until he finds someone better

  51. Emily, the original

    Hi Adrian,
    Did you meet someone or at least have so much fun that you lost your glass slipper (^_^).
    No, I didn’t meet someone, but did have a good time. Went to see a cover band that played old-school r&b and funk. 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Most of it probably before your time, but they played a Maxwell song. You might remember him from the mid-90s.
    I’m thinking in this guy’s mind they had a Saturday date, which he asked her about and she confirmed… then out of the blue, she waits until the day before to tell him, she wants to go out with her friends instead. It is the insecure guy’s apocalyptic nightmare come true.
    I see what you mean, but don’t you think he over- reacted? Admittedly, her sending that email to him was strange. All of this could have been cleared up by a simple phone call by either party.
    Some of the other guys who commented on this post wrote that he might have been waiting for her to step up and plan and pay for their next date. A perfectly reasonable wish by their 5th date.
     
     

  52. The writer went on four dates with him and accepted the fifth.  She waited until at least Thursday and when she told him she had made other plans, she reminded him how much she enjoyed their time together and that she looked forward to seeing him again.  He had a conversation or two to make the plans.  I think she did everything right.  She was welcoming and if he wanted to see her on Saturday, he should have made plans for Saturday.  He already had her yes.  Men DO play games…or call it what you will.  I know I’m only one example, but I’ve had men never contact me again after asking me out in that wishy washy way.  I’ve had them flake out even when the day was decided but never follow up with a place and time.  A brand new guy, or someone I had been on a couple of dates with.  Not to stray off topic, but I would be interested to hear from other women who have had the same experience.

  53. Emily, the original

    Evelyn,
    I know I’m only one example, but I’ve had men never contact me again after asking me out in that wishy washy way.  I’ve had them flake out even when the day was decided but never follow up with a place and time.  A brand new guy, or someone I had been on a couple of dates with.
    That’s happened to me. I’ve had tentative plans that were set for a Saturday night on the Wednesday before. I hear nothing until Saturday at 8 p.m. It’s a text: What are you doing? Of course, that situation went nowhere.
    The letter writer had been on four dates with this guy, which is still a new relationship. He had asked her out with no set date and time and then later talked to her on the phone but still didn’t confirm the details. How is she to know he hasn’t flaked? It’s too early in the relationship to know for sure.

  54. Emily, the original-agree! I have had that exact situation, too, with the text at 8 or 9 the day of the date.  I didn’t even respond.  I took that as a sign that he was trying to convert me to FWB.

  55. Emily, the original

    Evelyn
    I took that as a sign that he was trying to convert me to FWB.
    Yes! Like I was just sitting at home, dreaming of ways to blow him!
    He sent me the “What are you doing text?” twice, about an hour apart. I responded to the 2nd one: I didn’t hear from you so I made other plans.That nipped it in the bud.

  56. CaliforniaGirl

    I had a guy telling me he will pick me up at 7pm on Saturday night (second date) and never showed up or responded to my text that I sent few hours before to confirm.  Another one canceled via text literally 30 min before the date, I was already ready to leave the house. Funny thing that he texted me a week later and wanted to meet. I never even responded to that. It’s bad out there, my single girlfriends are giving up and stop dating but as someone commented here in the past – you have to be lucky just one time ????

  57. Yes, there are a lot of girls giving up nowadays. It just doesn’t seem worth it anymore to go through the headaches.

  58. I can kind of see her side but have to agree with Evan a bit more. We need more information. But I take it he’s a working professional. Basically he has Friday and Saturdays to go out on a date.
     
    She said yes. Instead of confirming with him before making plans on a Saturday. She basically told him if he wanted to see her again that weekend it has to be Friday. Like a you snooze you lose buddy!
     
    He should have made plans sooner but she could have avoided the situation with a quick text.

  59. I agree with Evan. She could’ve said something after 4 dates. There should’ve been a comfort level built by then which alludes to my next point–
    If the OP is wary about contacting a man she’s been with on 4 dates, then chances are there wasn’t enough chemistry anyway. And it’s for the best because of his reaction.  I would think a guy would be like whatever, next week then and brush it off. He cut off communication.

  60. This may be horrible to say, but this just happened to me too, so here’s what it sounds like to me… it sounds to me like he might have been on the verge of bowing out and used this an an easy out. I just dated a guy for a month, every weekend doing lots of different fun things, and a few middle of the week dates. I thought everything was going amazing, and we were having so much fun together! Then all of a sudden he tells me he’s not that in to me. At least he didn’t ghost, but he very well could have the way many people do things these days. Perhaps your guy had a change of heart, so became wishy washy about the planning. If he was in to you, I think he would have been easy going about what happened, and made a date for another night instead. Does it really matter that much if the date is on Saturday night? Unless there is a specific event that involves buying tickets or something, in which case plans would have been firmed up, what’s the difference? Friday night, Sunday afternoon, these are all good times to spend time together. The fact that he got terse and disappeared makes me think he would have been no fun to deal with in the future anyway, maybe the kind of person that might end up stringing you along a lot, and I am just saying that because two guys ago that is exactly what happened to me as as well. He made lots of clear defined dates for about one month, then everything got freeform and unclear and he started being late all the time. I was a fool and let him string me along for months! I would suggest try and be thankful it was a clear break and didn’t linger on.
    Also curious to know, since you did not mention Melinda, did you kiss at all? Get close? If  nothing happened, maybe he really thought you didn’t like him. One guy I went on only one date with kept telling me how much great chemistry we had and I did not feel it at all. Another guy who I went on only one date with, I felt a great connection and he said there was no chemistry. Chemistry is not necessarily mutual.

  61. I rarely disagree with Evan, but this time I do.
     
    I think you dodged a bullet, Melinda.

  62. Disappointed

    Sorry after this advice and your response – I’m beginning to think you are a fraud… After all this time you were quick to say ‘mirror’ the guy and the guy should make plans if he thinks you’re worthy.  Now, you are telling this woman – ‘sorry too bad your loss’ – it’s completely crazy and contradictrary to all your past advice – was a fan but now I’m just confused.

  63. Evan Marc Katz

    Okay. Goodbye.

  64. Disappointed, please learn to read with understanding instead of using your simple minded emotional stance to respond. HE DID MAKE PLANS AND INITIATED THE 5TH DATE! Instead of doing what she should have, which were to CONFIRM the ALREADY MADE plans, she chose to sit back and play games. This has nothing to do with mirroring. She had an initiative made by this man and a simple confirmation is all it takes (that’s not her chasing him). Good luck being confused. lol

  65. SparklingEmerald

    When I was in OLD, this sort of wishy-washy thing was typical for first or second dates.  I called it the 2/3 plan.  To schedule a first or second date, the guy(s) in question would give two of the three particulars,  date/time/place.  Apparently they could come up with 2 out of 3, but always had to “get back to me” to firm up the 3rd piece of the puzzle.
    One guy just came up with a date/time, but couldn’t think of a place.  We discussed several options,  but for some reason he couldn’t decide, so he had to “get back with me”.  Then at 10:30 PM, the night before the so-called date, he sent me a text that basically said “I still haven’t had time to think of a place, I went to the gym straight after work today.  I will send you a text sometime tomorrow and let you know where to meet me.  I know you don’t like communicating my text, so just say ‘yes’. ”   (In my profile I said I prefer phone to text)   Well, at that point I had already made “soft plans” that I could have easily changed, but that whole message rubbed me the wrong way, so I just sent him and e-mail saying since we didn’t have solid plans, that I had made other plans.  I thought it rather rude for him to keep me hanging until hours before the date.
    Since this was just many of a long string of 2/3 dates, that usually never materialized (even when I didn’t make alternate plans, even when I texted to confirm the missing one third) I searched several dating forums, and found a men’s site, that ADVISED men to make a date, but leave one piece missing, to see if SHE CALLS TO CONFIRM.  The reasoning behind this advice was, if she follows up to confirm the time/date/place, then it means she is really into you.  If she didn’t call to confirm in a specified time there were two options,  call her and confirm the last piece or forget about it.    So in this case, MEN WERE ADVISING EACH OTHER TO PLAY GAMES, but perhaps they didn’t look at it as “gaming”, it was just their way of trying to figure out if a girl was really excited about meeting with them.
    After that, if I got a 2/3 date and didn’t hear back, sometimes I would reach out to confirm, sometimes I would just forget about it. (depending on my mood)  But guess what ? The times I reached out to confirm, I got the wishy-washy, “my schedule is still up in the air”, or “something has come up”.
    So after a few flake outs like that, I just stopped putting any stock in those 2/3 date requests.  If someone suggested a “2/3” date, I would just casually say “OK, give me a call when you know what night you are free to go to “x,y, z” and if I’m still available we will meet.
    Luckily, I met my “Mr Wonderful” almost 2 years ago, and he was very focused on pursuing a relationship with me from day one.  No ambiguity, no wishy-washy talk.  Solid plans, showed up on time, told me how he felt about me in uncertain terms, asked me to be exclusive early on.  Once we were exclusive, it was understood that we had a standing date Friday through Sunday night or Monday morning at his place (I had a room mate, so my place was out),  and our plans usually just evolved every weekend.   I occasionally still do “girls night out” but usually during the week, and the very occasional weekend road trip with my girl tribe, I give him advance notice, so he can make some “guy plans” if he wishes.
    I think in the OP’s case, since they already had four dates,  it would have been fine if she reached out and asked for clarification, but the fact that he had such a hissy fit when she didn’t is a red flag to me.
    I guess I’ll never really know if some of the flakey 2/3 date planners, were really just keeping me on the back burner or were testing to see if I was really into them.  In OLD it’s pretty common to be seeing 2 or 3 people at once, so maybe I was just the back up, in case their #1 choice didn’t work out.
    I’m just so glad that I met my honey and he never kept my guessing or in the dark about us.

  66. CaliforniaGirl

    Exactly, I stopped taking seriously those 2/3 planners as well and my life became much easier.  Few months ago I went on a very nice first date and then few days later the guy planned a second date which was great as well. Then he disappeared till Friday (second date was on Saturday), so I assumed he is not interested and made plans for Friday and Saturday. We met on Sunday but I was just turned off by his behavior and the date was meh, where I just wanted to go home and watch my show on Netflix. He texted me few days later that he didn’t feel the connection we had on previous dates. I replied that I was turned off by him not following up after a second date where we made out for a few hours and then silence for almost a week. He said that his friend told him not to contact me for a week, so I’ll be more interested. I guess that his friend just gave him a bad advice…

  67. My take on this is that it goes back to the cardinal rule: Do Unto Others..
    From the sound of things, he planned 4 great dates and then got disappointed that she made other plans before he got a chance to pin down the 5th. Maybe he was extra busy at work, maybe he was in the midst of trying to organise something amazing for her and didn’t want to confirm until he’d managed to get that organised, we don’t know. But the gist, I think, is that prior to going off and planning something else, it may have been nice for her to check in (in a sexy, cute, non-needy way) about the 5th date. I think that’s what it boils down to.
    It’s also possible that he’s way over sensitive and she was very sweet and nice in the way she worded it, and made it clear she wanted to see him again and he overreacted. But at the end of the day, he put in a lot of effort for her and was probably just wanting a bit more effort or consideration on her part. That doesn’t go against the mirroring thing, I don’t think. It ties into it perfectly.

  68. I think the man was a little too sensitive.  I also think you should never say “I made plans”.   If you can’t make something, give a real reason and don’t be vague.  She should have said, “I promised friends I would meet with them.  Let’s reschedule.”.   Why would someone who has gone out on four dates with someone give such a stuffy reason why they can’t make a date number five?

  69. One of the rare times I disagree with Evan. The guy was vague, and it is at this point that many guys begin the fade. But I see  how each had a role in it. She could have reached out for clarification; he could have solidified plans as he had previously shown a pattern of doing. As the movie line goes, “what we’ve got here is a failure to communicate.”  I hope they can talk it out.

  70. I found this to be a really interesting thread.  I agree with Evan but I’ve been in the OPs position.  I am a planner and if a fella I’ve gone out with a few times and enjoyed their company doesn’t nail down a Saturday date by Thursday I will make other plans. I have done the initiate sexy follow up Friday and been blown off, put on hold “something came up”, etc.  When it’s the first month and you’re not quite into a relationship, any number of things can be clouding the scene. Particularly exes or someone else they were interested in, etc.
    I recently met a man who has been so decisive in his interest and intentions I am doing nothing but mirroring.  Even though we aren’t geographically compatible…he’s three hours away.  But.  If we find this is the relationship that we want…the person of our hopes and dreams.  He is clear then we figure the rest out.  Funny. I just moved and found my dream job.  But he’s semi retired and I can retire in 3-5 years.  So there’s some flexibility.  Honestly, I never considered long distance dating.

  71. CaliforniaGirl

    Four dates once a week and then uncertain fifth date? Hmmm, he is not into you or he wanted a way out, I agree with previous commenters.
    Just a month after I met a guy who is interested in me, now I can tell the difference. After 1.5 years of flakes, ghosting, uncertainty whether he will call or not, finally I met a guy who is just everything Evan is talking about.  In a month we spent 3 Thursday-Sunday weekends together, he calls and texts every day and plans a weekend on Monday ???? We live close and have similar work schedules,  so it works out perfectly. From the first date I knew he is interested, I didn’t even think about it. I never initiated a text or a call in a month and I think he is not used to it and he likes the pursuit.
    I really just now realized how it’s supposed to be and it feels so good.
    Btw, I met the guy on Match where my profile was written by Evan’s service and he said that it was the best profile he’d seen in his life ????
     

  72. “From the first date I knew he is interested, I didn’t even think about it.” This is key.
    I think what we/OP should look for is a courtship period where things hum along easily until the daters become a couple.  Easy flow (at least in a promising new relationship) is probably a sign that the daters are in sync, and a little misunderstanding is not going to wreck everything.
     
     
     

  73. GoWiththeFlow

    It’s interesting to read everyone’s impressions of what went down.
    On date #4 LW’s guy said let’s go out again, I’ll call you.  No date, time, or place was set.  She wanted to go out with him for round #5.  The talked on the phone sometime between Sunday and Wednesday but he didn’t “specify plans” for a 5th date.  So thursday rolled around and he hadn’t contacted her to set a date, time, and place, which wasn’t his typical M.O. up to that point.  So she went along and made plans with friends for Saturday.
    Then, somehow, LW lets her guy-friend know that she made plans with her friends for Saturday, while at the same time telling him how much she enjoys spending time with him and wants to see him soon.  It’s unclear whether she told him or messaged him that information on her own, or if she let him know she made plans after he contacted her.  He emailed her a “terse” message expressing his disappointment and she hasn’t heard from him again.
    Clearly they each held a set of assumptions about the other’s behavior.  She thought that if he wanted to set up a date for Saturday, he would have gotten back to her with firm plans by Thursday. It’s not clearly explained what was discussed about a possible date #5 on their call earlier in the week, but I wonder if based off that phone convo he thought they had a date set for Saturday with time and place yet TBD.  So when he learned she was going out with friends on Saturday, he felt blown off, and that was a deal breaker for him.
    That old saying about what happens when you assume:  You make an ASS out of U and ME.
    I think there’s a prime example of that going on here.

  74. “On date #4 LW’s guy said let’s go out again, I’ll call you.  No date, time, or place was set.  She wanted to go out with him for round #5.  The talked on the phone sometime between Sunday and Wednesday but he didn’t “specify plans” for a 5th date.  So thursday rolled around and he hadn’t contacted her to set a date, time, and place, which wasn’t his typical M.O. up to that point.  So she went along and made plans with friends for Saturday.”
     
    First, he never said that he was going to call her.  That is a significant qualifier you’re putting in there.  The more that I read the LW’s letter, the more I get the impression that he is waiting for her to finally plan a date as it appears that he has been doing the calling/planning/paying during the first four dates.  Seriously, on date #5, it is time for the woman to step up and call/plan/pay.  Is this really so hard for women to understand?

  75. Chance,
    “The more that I read the LW’s letter, the more I get the impression that he is waiting for her to finally plan a date…”
    Please quote that part of the letter.

  76. KK, you do understand what an impression is, right?

  77. Yes, Chance, I do understand. That’s why I asked you to provide some basis for yours.

  78. I thought you were asking for a direct quote where that was overtly indicated.  See my response to Tom10 for an explanation of why I get this impression.

  79. @ Chance #23.1“Seriously, on date #5, it is time for the woman to step up and call/plan/pay.  Is this really so hard for women to understand?”
     
    I think that’s a reasonable point Chance and most women, in my experience, do begin to step up after a few dates.
     
    However, with regards to Melinda’s (the letter writer’s) situation she writes this:
     “after our fourth date on a Saturday night, he immediately asked for a fifth date though he did not specify when that date would occur.” 
    If he was genuinely trying to gauge her interest and see whether she’d begin stepping up, it was unfair to ask her for a fifth date, leave her hanging, and then get annoyed with her for not stepping up to arrange said date.
     
    Now, there is the minute possibility that he simply forgot that he had already asked her for the date, but if he was genuinely into her he would’ve left no room for any doubt and locked it in. If she had kept her Saturday night free all week waiting for him to agree the date she is letting him take her for granted, thus undermines her own value and kills the situation.
     
    I sense he was humming-and-hawing about what to do next, and then got miffed when she called his bluff and went out with her mates instead!

  80. Hi Tom10,
     
    “I think that’s a reasonable point Chance and most women, in my experience, do begin to step up after a few dates.”
     
    Most women?  Nice!  Where do you live again??  lol
     
     
    “If he was genuinely trying to gauge her interest and see whether she’d begin stepping up, it was unfair to ask her for a fifth date, leave her hanging, and then get annoyed with her for not stepping up to arrange said date.”
     
    You could be right, but we just don’t have enough supporting details relating to this story to get the proper context so we’re left to speculate about his possible motives.  I’ll provide a personal anecdote to illustrate why I think what I described is a possibility for what might be going on.  Several years back, I went on several dates with a physician who never stepped up to call/plan/pay.  She continued to show interest and be receptive, but she never initiated.  I knew she made about the same amount of money that I made so I began to get irritated by her “allowing” me to take her out and pay for all of our entertainment.  So, after about a handful of dates, I told her at the end of the date that I enjoyed myself, but that I was going to let her make the plans for our next outing (I don’t remember what I said word-for-word, but it was something to that effect).
     
    While she did ultimately plan the following date (and paid), I told the story to my male friends, and they were stunned that I had the nerve to be so forward.  They agreed with my actions, but they indicated that they would be terrified to do the same thing because men understand how many women get royally pissed when they have to pay for something.
     
    So, it is possible that he could be expecting her to step up, but he isn’t quite bold enough to overtly express this desire.  His “asking for a fifth date” could have been simply stated as “Would you like to get together again?” or “I look forward to seeing you again”.  This would serve to inform her that he is still interested despite the fact that he doesn’t intend to plan the following date.  In this context, it makes more sense that he called later in the week, but didn’t ask her out while on the call (i.e., he could have been giving her an opportunity to ask him out).  His tersely worded email that expressed his disappointment also makes more sense within this context.  Again, I’m not saying it’s probable that this is what is going on, but I think that it’s just as plausible as any of the other theories floating about on here.

  81.  @ Chance
     “[I wrote] “I think that’s a reasonable point Chance and most women, in my experience, do begin to step up after a few dates.”
      
     “Most women?  Nice!  Where do you live again??  Lol”
     
     
     
    Let me phrase; unless women I date begin to step up after a few dates I cut them off, therefore, most women I date begin to step up. Lol.
     
     
     “I told the story to my male friends, and they were stunned…they would be terrified to do the same thing because men understand how many women get royally pissed when they have to pay for something”
     
     
     
    This must be geography so; almost all women I’ve dated have made an effort to contribute/reciprocate fairly early on in the dating process. The few who didn’t, I cut off.
     
     
     
    I didn’t see any point in asking the ones who didn’t if they would begin to contribute as they would already have done so if they had wanted to; therefore, it’s simpler to cut them off. It’s not clear in Melinda’s email if she contributed to any of the first four dates. It’s quite possible that she didn’t which is why he began to waver for the fifth date. But that’s a separate issue.
     
     
     “So, it is possible that he could be expecting her to step up, but he isn’t quite bold enough to overtly express this desire”
      
     
    Two things here:
     
    a)    So he isn’t quite bold enough to overtly express his desire for her to step up, but he is bold enough to send a terse email after the event? This seems a bit contradictory to me, which leads me to doubt that a lack of boldness is the problem.
     
    b)    Or even if the problem is a communication breakdown due to a lack of boldness, blaming her inability to infer his expectations is unfair as the communication problem lies on his end.
     
     
     “Again, I’m not saying it’s probable that this is what is going on, but I think that it’s just as plausible as any of the other theories floating about on here.”
      
    Lol. That’s one of the reasons I enjoy this blog; reading 75 different interpretations to one simple email/query, and the way contributors hyper-analyze every single word and sentence looking for “clues” as to who is right and who is wrong.

  82. Tom10,
     
    “a)    So he isn’t quite bold enough to overtly express his desire for her to step up, but he is bold enough to send a terse email after the event? This seems a bit contradictory to me, which leads me to doubt that a lack of boldness is the problem.”
     
    I don’t think it’s contradictory.  He could have lacked the boldness while he was still interested, but sent a terse email when he lost his patience.
    “b)    Or even if the problem is a communication breakdown due to a lack of boldness, blaming her inability to infer his expectations is unfair as the communication problem lies on his end.”
     
    I wasn’t claiming that he might have been irritated for her inability to read his mind.  I am trying to say that he could possibly be irritated with her unwillingness to plan a date on her own.
     
     
    “This must be geography so; almost all women I’ve dated have made an effort to contribute/reciprocate fairly early on in the dating process. The few who didn’t, I cut off.”
     
    I have often heard foreign men living in the States claim that American women are the most entitled women they have ever seen, and these men are coming from other developed and westernized cultures.  I don’t know if there is truth to it,  but I find it interesting that this is the consensus.

  83. HE asked HER.  Why would she plan a date he asked her for? It may be YOUR preference that the woman start planning and paying by the fifth date, but not necessarily other men.   I would not ask a guy out on the 5th date because I’m still gauging his level of interest.

  84. GoWiththeFlow

    Chance,
    When was she supposed to ask him out?  He already ASKED her for a 5th date on date #4, and he DID subsequently call her before the Thursday when she made other plans, as his M.O. up until that week was to contact her 2 to 3 times during the week.  From the LW:
    “After our fourth date on a Saturday night, he immediately asked for a fifth date though he did not specify when that date would occur. He called once more that week and we talked about how great the fourth date was, but he did not specify plans for a fifth date.”
    If the guy wanted her to ask/plan/pay for the fifth date, why did HE ask HER for date #5 while on date #4.  How is she supposed to ask him out on a date when he’s already done it and she’s agreed?  Or if he truly wants her to assume responsibility for date #5 why doesn’t he make this clear by saying something like, “Great!  We both want to see each other again.  I got the first four dates, why don’t you get the next one.  I’m looking forward to seeing what you’ll come up with!”
    “Is this really so hard for women to understand?”
    Not at all.  But the guy asked her out for date #5, and she said yes.  Where is she supposed to get in that exchange that he wants her to be in charge of the event?  The LW’s guy may have ASSUMED she “should just know” when the best way to get what he wanted was to not make assumptions, but to ask.
     

  85. GwtF, see my response to Tom10.

  86. Hi GoWithTheFlow,
    I am curious and would like your opinions on some of the sub or general conversations going on in this post.
    You are the type of woman I would love to marry, so I would love to know how you would act in some of these situations.
    Just because I have a strong or emotional opinion on something does not mean that I am right or that I should not see and therefore understand how the type of women I would like to date sees the same issue (which is why I always particularly ask you questions).
    …   …   …
    1. Anyway, how would you react in that situation?
    2. The most common opinion in the comments section is that this guy just was not really into this woman. My question to you is, “How would you know if a guy was really into you or if he was just playing you?”
    I ask because this guy’s actions seemed to line up with everything Evan has taught us on how to be a good man. He was consistent, calling, planning, paying, etc and the dates were fun for the letter writer.
    So how do you know when a guy is really into you? Do you think this was just a case of he just wasn’t really into her? Should women not more proactive in the beginning stages of courting?
    3.  Okay so this one was not directly said, but it is the general assumption that I am picking up from all the female commenters. Which is, in mirroring they are still doing and showing these men things to indicate their level of attraction for the guy (therefore the guys who disappeared on them was NOT due to anything on their parts); basically they are doing things to make the dates fun for him also in their own opinions.
    If that is true of not -I’m not saying it is not or that they did not-I am curious as to what would you do to show a guy that you really like him while simultaneously letting him lead by mirroring? How do you make the date fun for the guy as well, though you are still mirroring, if he is doing all the planning, calling, paying, etc
    4. What is our guess as to why the guy who was doing everything right for 4 dates, did a complete 360 at the end? Would a guy not into a woman put in all that work for so long?

  87. To offer an opinion:
    1. You say yes when you can and no when you can’t.
    2. You don’t know. You just have to operate in ignorance with good intentions and let it play out. Just like in business. It might work or not, but assuming the other guy is out to screw you is bad business ( and relationshipping).
    3. Mirroring is supposed to let the man know you are interested. If he needs more, it’s usually a sign he is insecure. Not deadly, but not good news either if you want a confident man. Personally, I always say things like “I’m enjoying getting to know you / spending time with you / you are so interesting to me”. I don’t make him guess. I tell him directly. If he is still guessing after that….that’s an issue I can’t fix ( and wouldn’t want to try.)
    4. Sounds like the OP messed up delivery of telling him she was going out Saturday, and he took it badly. I don’t think he did a 360, I think he didn’t realize he failed to finalize, then compounded the error by not asking her about it (likely due to insecurity). I think he was into her, and therefore was consistent throughout.

  88. GoWiththeFlow

    Adrian,
    “You are the type of woman I would love to marry. . .”
    Awww shucks! That’s so sweet of you!  If I was only 20 years younger. . . but I do have 3 gorgeous nieces ????
    1)  In this situation I would have either tried to nail down details on the call they had between date #4 and that fateful Thursday, or I would have messaged or called the guy on Thursday to clarify things.
    2)  “How would you know if a guy was really into you or if he was just playing you?”
    I think the guy was doing all of the right things, being consistent and taking the initiative.  Also there is how a man behaves when you are with him; eye contact, smiling, being present in the moment.
    I think what happened with our ill fated couple was that, in her eyes, after date #4 he started to follow the template of their previous weekly interactions–asking immediately for the next date–and it freaked her out a little when he then deviated from the template by not nailing down the details of date #5.  So she’s unclear as to whether they have a date or not and confused as to what to do.  I think that she glossed over that she sent him notice (texted, emailed, or left a voicemail) that she was going out with her friends as a way to poke him about not firming up plans as she expected.  It would have been better for her to reach out to the guy for clarification.
    I know it’s a minority opinion amongst the commenters but I do think the guy was into her.  I think him sending her the “tersely” written email expressing disappointment reflects that he was hurt and upset by her actions.  I think it’s quite possible that he DID think they had an agreement to go out that Saturday, and either he was working on the details or maybe he wanted to do something more casual or unscripted.  When he received her message that she has a great time with him but was going out with friends, he could have felt like she was blowing him off or she was playing games.
    3)  Mirroring just means that in the beginning stages, you give the man the level of attention he is giving you.  He calls or texts, you call or text him back in a timely manner.
    As far a behavior on a date, you show him your interest and respect by being on time, dressing attractively and appropriately for the date.  Be polite, be engaged in the conversation, be attentive, and sincerely thank him for his efforts.  Inject humor where you can, and flirt when you can if you’re feeling it ????
    In addition, I’m mindful of costs.  I automatically get my wallet out when the check comes and am prepared to split costs, or I will offer to trade off–he gets dinner, I pay for the movie tickets.  I don’t order high dollar menu items, and since I’m a lightweight, I don’t drink anything more than a glass of white wine with dinner, and usually I don’t even have that.  I thank him when he pays.
    4)  “What is our guess as to why the guy who was doing everything right for 4 dates, did a complete 360 at the end? Would a guy not into a woman put in all that work for so long?”
    I think that what happened was that they both had enough experience with each other that they had expectations and made assumptions about how the other should or would behave and they failed to communicate with each other when actual behavior didn’t line up with what was expected.  Part of having a healthy relationship is letting go of the idea that other people can read your mind and you have to learn how to ask for what you want, and ask for clarification when you need it, and be ready to provide that for the other person as well.

  89. I think the guy was doing all of the right things, being consistent and taking the initiative.  Also there is how a man behaves when you are with him; eye contact, smiling, being present in the moment.
    I completely agree with this.
    I do not put any emphasis on texting anymore. I have made so many errors judging a man’s interest, making assumptions, etc, based on his texting – rather than basing it on his actions when we are together.
    Being present, the topics discussed, introducing me to friends, talking about me to his parents, inviting me to parties weeks in advance, etc.
    If I based his interest on how he texts me, or lack of texts, I would miss out on a man who treats me with respect.
    Plus, he has a crazy schedule that rotates from graveyards, to days, to swing, etc. When he is on days, he communicates more often, since it matches my work schedule… but when he is on the other schedules, he only communicates on his weekends.
    There is so much gray area, so I focus on his actions when we see each other.
    Maybe I am wrong, but I’m fairly confident. It’s only been 6 weeks… if he doesn’t move forward after 3 months, I will move on, but I hate giving timelines when I am not in any rush to apply a label… But that’s me and how I live my life. I know a lot of people might say I am wasting my time, but I don’t feel like I am… Especially, with him.
    If he always had the same schedule and dropped the communication down, then it might be possible that I would have the sense that he was losing interest… Who knows…
    What I do know is that he isn’t the only guy out there. Haha.

  90. Adrian-  “You are the type of woman I would love to marry. . .”
    You are wise to recognize this in GWTF.  She is very wise indeed and has the perspective that we would be lucky to find in a woman.

  91. GWTF
    I know it’s a minority opinion amongst the commenters but I do think the guy was into her.
    He was into her. You are correct. Many women on these comments are judging the man’s actions through their female lense when analyzing this situation. What happened was she would have been wise to verify for Saturday. If I am planning and paying for four dates I would like some mirroring. I would have confirmed with her, but if she reaches out to me, that would have been even better. She seemed to assume he changed his mind or was playing games. Like Evan said, we don’t play games; if we like you we like you.
    Thanks for your sagacious comments GWTF.
     

  92. Regardless of the rest, which has been well discussed, so I’m skipping commenting, the fact that he sent an email expressing disappointment, then disappeared, says all I’d need to know about a guy.
    He didn’t get what he wanted one time, and he was out? Really?
    You found out he was a jerk. You are allowed to go out with your friends. He hadn’t claimed your Saturday. You aren’t a doormat.
     

  93. Just saying

    Chance, I sense your frustration with the posters here. Many, particularly women, simply cannot see things from the man’s point of view. To me her final text either says one of two things. 1) I want you to keep planning and paying for all our dates or 2) I want you to keep pursuing me and to give you incentive, I am making myself less available so you can try harder. That may not be her intention, but it certainly comes across that way. She is indicating her interest but doing nothing to back it up all in the interest of “mirroring”. She is either really clueless or very manipulative.
     
     

  94. It doesn’t matter if she initiated contact FIRST to tell him she is busy on Saturday. It doesn’t matter if he assumed she was trying to throw it in his face.
    If a man is REALLY into a woman the way she needs him to be, he would have still asked her about it or proceeded to iron out any misunderstandings.
    OP, he was just not that into you.  This is way too minor a situation to turn off any man who is sufficiently into you. He probably was neutral about his feelings for the OP in the first place and this was something that gave him an out for him to ‘make up his mind’ and go with his other option(s). And honestly, if he is this sensitive anyway, you shouldn’t want him.
    Regardless of the reason, he wasn’t for you.

  95. I agree with Cara. After four dates where he was initiating, suddenly he becomes vague and doesn’t lock anything down, even though she had expressed sincere interest in a fifth date; then when she (understandably) makes other plans he sends her a curt email and she never hears from him again. I say, NEXT! A man who was interested would have made a mental note to not let her slip through his calendar again.

  96. I’m surprised no one else has mentioned it,
    BUT
    Isn’t it possible that she took the tone of his email out of context?
     

     

  97. Just Saying

    Adrian, if she had lacked the social instinct to have taken his text out of context and misunderstood it, then she probably misconstrued or misjudged his interest in the first place. I don’t know why all the posters here, including men, think the guy should keep persisting in “ironing” out any misunderstandings. That it is his responsibility and his alone, to keep the fire of interest buring and sustained. After all suppossedly great dates, shouldn’t the woman at least try to reach out ? If I were OP Melinda I would send another email to clarify and make happy, even offering to schedule a date. If he was non responsive to my latest gesture of goodwill and peace, then the posters here are all correct – he is a jerk,

  98. If she misinterpreted the tone of his email, it would have been cleared up later when he reached out again, right? She said she never heard from him again.

  99. Love this video!
    How about let’s not rely so much on texting as a way of communication?

  100. Just Saying

    On a final note. OP Melinda has totally misunderstood the concept and execution of “mirroring”.  Her interpretation of “mirroring” is simply being receptive and open to a man’s interest and advances. This is hardly “mirroring” at all. “Mirroring” suggest matching a man’s interest and actions to the same extent. So if he calls you and you are interested, call him back – call for call. If he keeps inviting you to bars for drinks, invite him back to your favourite bars for drinks instead, rather than excalating to house parties, social gatherings or what not. If he only texts once a week, then text back once a week if you want to keep that option open.

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